If the plumb line for perfection is NO yeast, then of what relevance is the statement: The bread is not as yeast-y as it could be. Hester, I am eagerly waiting for you to do your next blog post! The reformed assume the posture that they alone safeguard Gods honor. Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. On a site that deals with domestic abuse, it can very easily for discussion to descend into man hating. I am a new Methodist pastor, a woman who has a great deal of respect for people who love the Lord and are serious about their study. Thanks for taking my comment in the way I intended. Good point. And those who might still reject it, might also be rejecting it for the wrong reasons and miss out on some important wrestling that could help them grow. In this video, Jesse Morrell refutes the Calvinist doctrine that God is the author of sin. If all that they know are talking points, then it is hard to back them up. That they are the sole divine recipients of truth, again. I didnt really love Him then, either, He always seemed so distant. First of all, I agree with what Jeff S wrote about the word leaders. Also, even if I considered someone a leader, I dont march in lockstep with him/her. We dont have to dwell on our differences. http://www.seattlepi.com/news/us/article/Head-of-Southern-Baptist-school-marks-20-years-4780941.php. My dad was Russian Orthodox, primarily because it was a cultural expectation for him. Those wishes are not uncommon. If they use their beliefs to beat people over the head, they are obviously jerks. This is a corollary to Julie Anne Smith's story above. Am very sorry to read of your sils diagnosis. Thank you! Although occasionally hurt by these accusations of heresy, he responds like a gentleman. I will say that as a fairly new Lutheran, I have REALLY been blessed by the attitude that as a woman, I am relating directly to Christ and am responsible for my own theology. Never once did I hear the word Calvin. A stupendously important point, Jeff. Whatever power is exhibited in this world is not due to an independent machine with its own source of power and energy. I know you know how to do that because Ive seen you do it at ACFJ. Any benefit we get from His death (i.e., salvation) is great, but if we act like we are too focused on salvation, we are selfish and may not even be saved.. @ JeffB: If God had not give Adam and Eve a test and just stuck them there in the Garden with no choices, or had God forced them to be good, that itself is not an act of good, and God would have had two robots on his hands. But when I look at others, I take a view that is closer to Arminian: that they have a responsibility to respond to the Gospel that is before them. (Sorry, elastigirl, but you were so honest about the kind of God we all want that I have to use your example.) He does not reject the Gospel, but he does reject predestination as presented by Calvin. Until about 6 years ago, I never, once, had any conflict with those who are Reformed. I cant get there either on the basis of the argument (I have heard it all and tried)., I get where you are coming from within your paradigm. I met my husband when he wandered over to Park Street after he attended a service at Tremont Temple. He is a loving man in spite of the baloney flung his way. All we ask is that you pray for us when you get mad at us. Donald Arthur Carson (born December 21, 1946) is Emeritus Professor of New Testament at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and co-founder of The Gospel Coalition. I ended up writing my final essay for my theology degree on the extent of the atonement. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. A secondary cause is always subservient to the primary cause, which is God. But that doesnt mean that the beliefs are necessarily untrue. I could also pile up a lot of influential non-theologians here (C. S. Lewis, Billy Graham, Bill Bright), but I'm assuming your question was probing for a theological communicator of Packer's stature. Toward that end, here are five Baptist theologians from the past I commend as must reading for every Baptist pastor. Inevitably, then, youll sometimes find restless young men who want to make a name for themselves (and who hasnt been there) (other than restless young women) will take the idea and make it a point of honour to run as far as they can with it. My humble opinionyet supported by scripture, is that the doctrines of unconditional election, limited atonement, and meticulous sovereignity (the last is not a pillar) villify and slander the name and character of Christ. I pointed out in the comments that the church at large didnt even HAVE a concept of PSA for the first 1,000 years, and it wasnt really popularized until the Reformers. 1. Witherington doesn't like to be put in either camp, and Lenski is Lutheran. Do they represent your brand of reformed thought? @wartwatch Not even the milk toast "We regret if anyone was offended"? What DOES bother me is when people reject something on the basis of misinformation. We were just glad that othersunderstood where we were coming from. I dont experience this extreme attitude from you at all. In light of this, RC understands that free will cannot possibly be free, by definition. Barrett 29. I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. Recently, Julie Anne Smith, of the Spiritual Sounding Board, hada bit of a crisis in dealing with Calvinism. CALVIN! But if you think about it, thats not all that surprising. And since they realize that their belief is based on purely subjective interpretations of scripture that require severe qualificationwell, much easier to get you to just concede their premises by couching them in theologically nebulous, but emotionally attractive (and manipulative), platitudes. How dare he write such a long work! I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. Quotes about calvinism That is a love that does not send babies or the mentally unable to hell, nor is it a love that creates people predestined to hell, but rather gives them a choice and only when repeatedly rejected, judges people for their rejection of him. I will not monopolize the conversation..I apologize for my run on posts. But I can tell you this, there are times in the past where I would have characterized the tone of TWW as anti-Calvinist. It was your comment about illogic that got me to thinking. He isnt at cross-purposes with Himself, so the question is silly. You have nothing to do with it. Thats not counting all the wives of elders, deacons, and Christian men in general. He didnt say to have faith in the Reformation, or Tulip, or Keller, or your pastor/elder, husband, or Mary. To help clarify this, theologians for centuries have distinguished between primary and secondary causality. But the guy still strikes me as the I have Everything figured out! 1. Actually, Luther wrote more about election and predestination than did Calvin. I err on the side of allowing too much now, just because the value of finally being able to have a voice is so huge! Maybe I dont get out enough, but I cant remember the last time I heard or read a Calvinist leader saying these kinds of things, unless they were referring to someone like Brian McLaren. Lin wrote: The fervor of thismovement reminds me of theearly, heady days oftheJesus movement. And heres something I realized: I HATE the word Calvinist. 14 William Lane Craig As a moderator at my blog, yes, Id shut it down and recommend that they take it to the Calvinism debate thread if they want to discuss it further. I used to think I was too till I went to Bible College and studied it in more depth. I am sorry those times seemed to have been exchanged for dogma over Christian friendship. And I am fully expecting at least one learned, reformed MAN to give me a tongue lashing. I hope that alone will entice some to read it. Id prefer not to use the word to describe myself. Wow. For my part, I honestly dont understand a need to defend Calvinism, or Luther, or the RCC, or Baptists, etc., etc. @ Julie Anne: For a son to commit suicide? I do believe that some brands have harmful elements that bring extra despair as if every day life doesnt bring enough. Let me backtrack. As far as the WCF- sure it isnt exactly what Calvin taught. He does not back down on what he believes, yet responds to such denunciations with a gentle manner. Dee, thank you so much for asking for prayers for my son-in-law! OK, but if you choose to do evil instead of good, I mean. Takes great delight in you living your life, the ups and the downs. I disagree. I think this post was a great step toward making those folks feel more welcome. My experience with this cult gave me a starting point to question my need for God in my life and showed me how to trust God rather than blindly follow a man-led cult. This is what has been preached to many people over and over. It wasnt until they tried to recruit me to take an $85.00 course to learn to speak in tongues that I actually started studying my Bible. 2) Dee, all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet. They are letting someone else handle driving. But I do think it is very important to not shut people down if they dont tow the party line. This was no emotional, short term thing. What I am saying is that there is such a thing as finding joy in salvation, thanking God for His grace, but accepting that there is peace to be found in paradoxes. God is immense beyond our comprehension and because of that, I do not believe the Calvinist ideas of Sovereignty (or the related principles of TULIP). Why is Guidepost Solutions now involved? I have not had that experience. But, knowing that this type of discussion triggers upsetting thoughts, why did you encourage it? Look at my Perfect System! Ive seen the attitude too often in fandom, and for some reason political or theological fanboys are a lot more respectable than furry or otaku or gamer fanboys, though the underlying dynamic is similar. I want to say here that I dont think that God takes pleasure in these events and I dont think that God forces people to sin, even in their thoughts. They are part of what it means to be human. Even though I have now separated myself from that belief system, connecting with those words brought me right back to those intense feelings of God was right there watching me get abused and didnt do a darn thing about it. So I posted my abuse story/Calvin connection and have tried to keep that thread safe. The Calvinism debate thread is a great place to really get into the nitty gritty of those tough issues. But I dont think I have to pick. This being the case, there is no rations basis for saying that YOU as a person can agree to the first and disagree on the second. Rather, I am encouraging those that may be suffering under a Calvinista doctrine that it is OK sometimes to say I dont know. Olson has occasionally been accused of heresy for not adheringto the current YRR view of doctrine. For non-Calvinists, this can get very confusing since each claims that theirs is the real interpretation of Calvin. Thus, just when you think youve got them pinned with the logical plumb line, they slip deftly away with a declaration of noyou dont understand; I dont BELIEVE that. ISTM, that the fundamental issue in abuse is betrayal. The same dynamic that caused Charles Darwin to say I am not a Darwinist and Karl Marx to say I am not a Marxist? Any small error can lead us on to some very large mistakes if we arent careful. Should that be will be a Calvinist since that is in the future?!?!?! If I am doing good by sowing good wheat kernels and not tares, why would the Almighty want to stop me? We have a question for you? I saw this is a problem, and I do think Deb and Dee have addressed it. I read CS Lewis, Francis Schaeffer and many others. Dr Abraham Kuyper (1837-1920) was a Dutch Calvinist theologian, philosopher and politician. Did you see my comment in the post about a nice Calvinist? For what its worth, Darcyjo, you have my respect as is deserved by a soldier in the front line of what Patricia King calls the Love War. With fear and trembling I'll list Sren Kierkegaard. Accept that many Calvinists have never experienced a doctrinally rigorous, non-Calvinist church. 1554-1612), who was trained in theology in a university (Cambridge), and Thomas Helwys (ca. So help me now - these labels are mind boggling - if I see on a list somewhere that so and so is a Calvinist, or an Arminian, or Pelagist (and I know I messed that word up and every time I saw it I went back to my marine biology days and thought about deep ocean life as the words are similar so I would picture the man from Atlantis and get very sidetracked in whatever idea was being posted . I dont want to speak out of turn here, but I wonder if the word calvinist should be banned, like the word bitter, due to the frequency with which it is taken out of context and/or the extent to which it means different things to different people. Be prepared though, reading The Institutes is a difficult undertaking. Learning as we go, making mistakes but so what, & learning from them. you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. I Am a Christian - The first reason I'm not a Calvinist is that John Calvin was a man. In a faith that is centered on love, (What greater love is this?) it is hard for me to understand why abused people are so often further destroyed by that faith as presented by others. There is a reason there has been a debate for centuries. Witherington and Lenski are not Calvinists, but they're not Arminians, either. In spite of the current emphasis on Neo-Calvinism, it is still a minority position. whats wrong with mess anyway? Thanks for the recommendation. If a man chooses to rape a woman, does God have the power to stop him? I have the utmost respect for my long-time regular reader and pastor who happens to be Calvinist, Craig Vick, who posted the following comment on my blog article where I was struggling with the doctrinal/abuse confusion: For what its worth, from now on Ill make sure I think of your story and the stories of others before I express my theology. Alexander Maclaren 15. He was the leading French Protestant reformer and the most important figure in the second generation of the Protestant Reformation. Rather, it is a doctrine that expresses classical Jewish orthodoxy, Muslim orthodoxy, and Christian orthodoxy with respect to the nature of God. This is a big issue for me, because theres a difference in believing in PSA and believing it is central to the Gospel or that believing a different atonement theology is a different Gospel. Where we end, he begins. But those of us who are labeled as misconstrue-ers of Calvinism are simply pointing out the logical flaws in their arguments. (But I always wondered why, if it was not His desire that any man should perish, that He also would create someone specifically for hell?? Ex-Calvinist Daniel Gracely in his book Calvinism a closer look writes: "Calvinist and Non-Calvinist do not share the same meaning of words.. I was open. However i wish i wouldnt see this on a Pastor in order for me to chose a congregation in such denomination without fear of having a surprise, Eastern Orthodoxy Roman Catholicism Anglicanism(One is allowed to be a Calvinist soteriologically, and some exist, but it is a minority position) Lutherans(although they might similar to one who does not know the nuances of their doctrine) Methodists, Certain Baptists(Although Baptists have their roots in Zwinglian Calvinism, and are doctrinally incoherent when they reject it) Charismatics(due to the fact they are doctrinally incoherent when it comes to these things, you can technically say they are not Calvinists). Well see how well I execute on that. However, Jesus entered our dimension and exists now outside of our dimension. As well as giving off a strong aroma of the No True Scotsman fallacy. There is a new evangelism taking place. I dont have an answer, but I dont like the other alternatives either (that God doesnt exist, is not all powerful, or is evil). So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. I believe in Penal Substitutionary Atonement. I immediately connected with reader Oasis and it left me sobbing. @ Nick Bulbeck: Hmm not sure I agree, but if were OK on the Apostles and Nicene Creeds, alls well! Of course the bewildered question of why didnt God? will inevitably come up. But I do not understand why discussions of sovereignty do not always point to love, to the simple fact that while we do not have enough information yet, on this side of life, we can be confident that love and fairness/justice is and always will be the answer and we will someday understand how it looks, And any idea that causes people existential damage is wrong.